I'm thoroughly disgusted by shul's kashrut decision
My local synagogue recently voted to ignore the lack of rabbinical supervision at local bakeries and buy dairy cakes from them anyway, based on their use of kosher ingredients. (We will continue to buy parve cakes from kosher bakeries.) I think this decision makes a mockery of our synagogue's claim to be a "traditional" synagogue. I could understand such a decision if we were located in the middle of nowhere and the nearest kosher bakery were a four-hour round-trip drive away, but really, this is New York City, for crying out loud. Will anyone die from taking a taxi to a Jewish neighborhood? I'd quite annoyed that this decision was supported by the chair of the Ritual Committee, particularly since I happen to be married to him. (Sigh--ah, the joys of a "mixed marriage." :( )
I explained my theory that it's not unusual for Conservative Jews to maintain different levels of kashrut depending on such circumstances as whether one is eating outside of one's home, in one's home, or in one's synagugue, but almost none of the other synagogue members was interested. I might as well have been talking to myself. Bottom line: I can no longer trust the kashrut of the dairy foods at any of the last three synagogues (all affiliated with the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism) in which I've prayed (including the two in which I currently pray) on a regular basis, unless the foods are packaged and have a hechsher. Last Shabbat was the last time I'll be able to eat my own birthday cake at kiddush in my own synagogue unless I take a taxi and buy it myself. :(
I explained my theory that it's not unusual for Conservative Jews to maintain different levels of kashrut depending on such circumstances as whether one is eating outside of one's home, in one's home, or in one's synagugue, but almost none of the other synagogue members was interested. I might as well have been talking to myself. Bottom line: I can no longer trust the kashrut of the dairy foods at any of the last three synagogues (all affiliated with the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism) in which I've prayed (including the two in which I currently pray) on a regular basis, unless the foods are packaged and have a hechsher. Last Shabbat was the last time I'll be able to eat my own birthday cake at kiddush in my own synagogue unless I take a taxi and buy it myself. :(
posted by Shira Salamone at 7:21 PM
17 Comments:
Been here, done this. In MA, the rabbi at my then C shul responded to requests to replace the (kosher) Enteman's cakes with 'fresh' (treif) donuts bought Shabbat morning from the local Dunkin Donuts with "Why not? Everything dairy is kosher."
My wife stopped attending shul there after the rabbi and some members repeatedly criticized her for checking for heckshers on the kiddush food wrappers so she would know what she could eat.
The shul 'progressed' from this to ordering hot pizza from the local treif pizza parlor for Sunday pizza and prayer sessions, with the proviso that only non-meat pizzas could be ordered.
In all fairness, that's not really wrong. According to Conservative Halacha, all Dairy is acceptable. According to Orthodox rules, the leniency is Cholov Stam (plain milk), that doesn't apply to creams or cheeses. That's why the local Rabbi says that coffee from a local coffee place is fine, but you have to get it with milk (Cholov Stam), not cream, which isn't covered by that leniency... cream needs supervision.
The other issue with the Dunkin Donuts, whose food doesn't have a Kashrut reason, is Bishul Akum (cooked by a non-Jew), which has been ignored by the Conservative movement, but held as a binding Rabbinic decree by Orthodoxy because it's a Talmudic rule.
My MIL's choir went out to the local pizza place with the Canter, everyone thought that it was fine, because it's just Dairy... no Orthodox group would do that, but for the conservative group, why not? It's consistent with Conservative Halacha.
Quite frankly, I find that FAR more honest than the Conservative Shul pretending that it follows Orthodox rules inside... if you are going to be nominally Orthodox, set up as a nominally Orthodox Shul with non-observant members... plenty of "Modern Orthodox" Shuls operate that way, with mostly non-observant members... and virtually every Sephardic Shul has mostly non Shomer Shabbat members.
Larry's former rabbi said, "Everything dairy is kosher." Al said "According to Conservative Halacha, all Dairy is acceptable."
As far as I know, the Rabbinical Assembly ruled that all U.S.-made cheese is kosher because we trust the U.S. Department of Agriculture to keep pig's milk out of cheese. As for the rennet, originally a meat product, which is used to make most cheese, I don't know whether the RA's logic is that rennet is so far removed from its meat origins as to be "davar chadash" (a "new thing," & therefore, no longer meat/fleishig/b'sari), or whether the amount of rennet used is so small as to be "batel b'shishim" (1/60, an amount so small as to be considered "ignorable" in terms of kashrut, and, therefore, permissible).
*However,* what does that have to do with *cooked* dairy food? Donuts are fried, pizza is baked. Both should be under rabbinical supervision. Even discounting the Bishul Akum prohibition, which I don't accept, how do we know that the food is kosher unless both the ingredients *and the preparation* are supervised?
Sorry, Al, but I disagree. I think a synagogue should try to bring its congregants up to the synagogue's standards, rather than bring the synagogue's standards down to those of the congregants.
"My wife stopped attending shul there after the rabbi and some members repeatedly criticized her for checking for heckshers on the kiddush food wrappers so she would know what she could eat." As you were saying, Larry, been there, done that. My own sister congregants (yeah, mostly the women) have already told me that they intend to watch me to make sure I keep my word about no longer eating dairy cake at a kiddush. Unfortunately, it's pretty difficult to check a food's kashrut discretely, and some people have no patience with those who have standards.
Al said, "Quite frankly, I find that FAR more honest than the Conservative Shul pretending that it follows Orthodox rules inside." I may not be consistent, since I observe the rules differently depending on the circumstances, but I'm honest about my inconsistency.
I don't know whether the RA's logic is that rennet is so far removed from its meat origins as to be "davar chadash" (a "new thing," & therefore, no longer meat/fleishig/b'sari), or whether the amount of rennet used is so small as to be "batel b'shishim" (1/60, an amount so small as to be considered "ignorable" in terms of kashrut, and, therefore, permissible).
The davar chadash explanation is the one held by the C movement. Nullfication by volume (bitul b'shishim) is explicitly not allowed when a substance makes a noticeable change to the form of the finish product. Interestingly, both some Sephardic poskim and the C movement allows for the use of generic gelatin due to the gelatin becoming a dvar chadash. This is the reason Jell-o has a plain K for a heksher - the rabbi behind the original certification was Sephardi.
See Is Jello kosher and Ohr.edu for details
Incidentally, the rabbis also added a prohibition of Gevinat Akum to require that the rennet be added to the cheese by a shomer shabbat Jew. Rav Moshe Feinstein considered waiving this rule for the same reason he waived the requirement of Jewish supervision of milk, but decided against it.
"The davar chadash explanation is the one held by the C movement. Nullfication by volume (bitul b'shishim) is explicitly not allowed when a substance makes a noticeable change to the form of the finish product." That's a no-go on nullification, Nellie. :) Thanks for the info, Larry.
Sorry, Al, but I disagree. I think a synagogue should try to bring its congregants up to the synagogue's standards, rather than bring the synagogue's standards down to those of the congregants.
ROFL
Bad Cohen (also a member of our Ritual Committee) and I have been arguing about this very thing!
I've been hanging out with too many frummies online, apparently, because our Reconstructionist shul is starting to look Reform to me. Probably because nobody actually wants it to be Reconstructionist, which would require actually agreeing on communal standards and enforcing them.
"I've been hanging out with too many frummies online, apparently, . . ." Now it's *my* turn to roll on the floor laughing. :) Blogging is a new form of peer pressure: It's largely because of the influence of my Orthodox readers that I've stopped turning on electrical devices on Shabbat/Sabbath and Yom Tov/holidays, and have also been trying very hard (often, but not always, successfully, at this point) to pray 3 times a day.
" . . . nobody actually wants it to be Reconstructionist, which would require actually agreeing on communal standards and enforcing them." As you may have gathered from all my griping, Conservative Judaism has a similar problem: We have official standards, but few of us Conservative Jews in the pews actually follow them. I'm not perfect in this regard, either: I haven't yet given up eating dairy in non-kosher restaurants and traveling on Shabbat and Yom Tov. Guilty as charged.
Sorry, Al, but I disagree. I think a synagogue should try to bring its congregants up to the synagogue's standards, rather than bring the synagogue's standards down to those of the congregants.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm suggesting that the synagogue IS enforcing it's standards. You want to enforce your standards, which is that on dairy matters, you are theoretically Orthodox, while in practice non observant (or as we used to joke with some nominally Orthodox friends growing up, non-practicing Orthodox). However, your synagogue is Conservative, and the Rabbi is ruling based upon Conservative Halacha and theory.
You want the Rabbi to rule for his synagogue based upon Orthodox rules (requiring Supervision means requiring an Orthodox Rabbi to supervise the food... a Rabbi that wouldn't recognize his Semicha/Ordination)... and THAT would be hypocrisy... and incidentally what drove my immediate family out of the Conservative world BEFORE we were observant... If you think that the Orthodox are right, join them, even imperfectly, but intentionally doing things wrong is stupid.
Al said, "Quite frankly, I find that FAR more honest than the Conservative Shul pretending that it follows Orthodox rules inside." I may not be consistent, since I observe the rules differently depending on the circumstances, but I'm honest about my inconsistency.
Being honest on a forum isn't the same thing as being consistent in practice in a representative fashion. I get that you eat Dairy out while thinking that you shouldn't... There are definitely business settings where I'm required to choose the least bad thing in a non-Kosher restaurant (non cooked vegan isn't ALWAYS doable), and I fall below my standards. OTOH, switching to milk from cream when I buy coffee hurt the flavor, but not my chance for Parnassah.
I'm not suggesting that the Shul is below your standards. I'm just suggesting that their behavior is consistent with the movement that the synagogue is affiliated with... consistent with its rulings and standards committee or whatever they call it... not consistent with it's members.
The only group with member standards is the Orthodox world, and that isn't enforced from the Rabbi, but my congregants. If people won't eat in your house, or let their kids play with your children, you are forced to comply or leave, even if your behavior is Halachicaly permitted.
Which is why we have women that cover their hair on Shabbat, when around people in the neighborhood, that are differently practicing when NOT in the neighborhood which seems crazy, except the former is an enforced community standard, and the latter makes their kitchen technically not Kosher, but isn't enforced.
You want the Rabbi to rule for his synagogue based upon Orthodox rules
No she doesn't. First of all, there is a range of acceptable opinions about kashrut within the C movement. Always insisting on following the lowest standard is just as toxic to diversity as always following the highest standard.
Secondly, the various teshuvot permitting the purchase and counsumption of unsupervised food make it clear that this is a concession and to be used only when needed. The older restaurant teshuvah for example, as described in Keeping Kosher by Samuel Dresner says that eating in a kosher restaurant is preferable if one is available. Similarly, eating kosher Entenmann’s cakes when they are available is preferable to eating non-kosher pastries.
Shira's request that the shul maintain a level of kashrut such that regularly attending members may eat at its events is not obviously misplaced. If she is a member of a very small minority then she may lose, but I think it is reasonable that the question be raised (as in fact it was).
Larry said, " . . . the various teshuvot permitting the purchase and counsumption of unsupervised food make it clear that this is a concession and to be used only when needed."
Al, this concession is being used when it's not needed, since there are kosher bakeries and supermarkets within public transit or taxi distance of our local synagogue.
As to why I insist that *all* food served in a synagogue be under rabbinical supervision, I can’t even trust my fellow and sister *Jews* to know all the laws of kashrut, and it would be downright unfair to expect any non-Jew working in kosher-food preparation to know them.
You want the Rabbi to rule for his synagogue based upon Orthodox rules
No she doesn't. First of all, there is a range of acceptable opinions about kashrut within the C movement. Always insisting on following the lowest standard is just as toxic to diversity as always following the highest standard
Right, range of opinions in the Conservative movement, and it's up to the Rabbi of the synagogue. The Rabbi and the Ritual Committee (chaired by her husband) decided on an opinion, legitimate in Conservative Judaism, that permits dairy without supervision. Our hostess doesn't agree, based upon the idea that while she does eat dairy out, she doesn't think that she really should, and would like to not do so in the future.
Shira's request that the shul maintain a level of kashrut such that regularly attending members may eat at its events is not obviously misplaced. If she is a member of a very small minority then she may lose, but I think it is reasonable that the question be raised (as in fact it was).
But that's the thing, Shira is part of a minority that maintains SOME degree of Kashrut, while not "keeping Kosher" in the accepted Halachic manner. Shira does eat non-Kosher Dairy out, just doesn't want to at Shul. It's a completely reasonable cultural position, just not a valid Halachic one under either C or O rules.
In any version of Judaism, one is free to maintain any stringency they want. However, expecting the Shul to spend money on Kosher products for a congregation of which nobody (including Shira), keeps Kosher outside the home, seems a bit silly. My wife grew up with a "Kosher home," but eating anything out... it's a real cultural connection to Judaism, but there is no concept in Halacha of a Kosher home... either you keep Kosher or you don't... as a Rabbi once told my wife, the idea is to have a Kosher body, not Kosher dishes.
I don't disagree that the Shul should keep Kosher. But I think that the complaint would be taken more seriously if the complainer actually kept Kosher, and actually had a problem eating the food. I get the theoretical issue, but it's hard to argue if she'd eat in the restaurant, she'd eat take out from the restaurant, but she doesn't want to eat the take out inside the Shul's function room.
Al said, "Our hostess doesn't agree, based upon the idea that while she does eat dairy out, she doesn't think that she really should, and would like to not do so in the future."
Apparently, I didn't make my objection clear enough. My own kashrut (or lack thereof, from a more traditional perspective) is not the only issue--*your* kashrut, should you happen to visit my shul, is equally an issue.
By way of explanation, I'm posting a copy of part of a letter that I wrote to a good friend and former sister congregant (from a previous synagogue):
“Keeping a synagogue's kitchen kosher, by some communally-recognized standard, is a Reconstructionist imperative. Rabbi Kaplan [Rabbi Mordechai M. Kaplan, founder of Reconstructionist Judaism] always considered the Jewish people to be at the heart of the evolving religious civilization that is Judaism. There are so many matters of principle that separate us from some other Jews, such as egalitarianism and the acceptance of female rabbis and cantors. Why fight over issues that are *not* matters of principle? Any Conservative or Modern or Centrist Orthodox Jew ought to be able to make a motzi in a Reconstructionist synagogue, even if he or she can't davven in one. It's the least we can do as a movement to promote achdut Yisrael, the one-ness of the Jewish people.”
Shira, please don't take any of my comments as an attack on you... rereading them, they could be read that way. I love your blog, and followed your recovery with tremendous interest (albeit without actually posting on it, because I don't know you beyond blog posts).
Apparently, I didn't make my objection clear enough. My own kashrut (or lack thereof, from a more traditional perspective) is not the only issue--*your* kashrut, should you happen to visit my shul, is equally an issue.
My very secular family made sure that both my Bar Mitzvah reception and my brother's were catered by a Kosher facility.
A friend was telling me a story from one evening at Chabad. The local Chabad had something on Kashering a kitchen, and she went (was a relatively recent BT at the time), and one of the participants was a non Jewish girl, who showed up, wanting to know how to Kasher her kitchen for her Jewish boyfriend. My friend was stunned, because the guy obviously had no problem dating a gentile, but cared about Kashrut, asked the girl why it mattered. The girl confusedly told her, "because he's Jewish."
We both thought that it was the most insightful and pure comment we ever heard. Jews (and in this case the gentile significant other of a Jew) should keep a kosher home, because that's what Jews do.
In that regard, I agree with you, a Shul, or any other Jewish building/home should be Kosher, because that's what Jews do. Regardless of politics, theology, etc., we should be able to eat in each other's homes.
The tragic thing is that Kashrut, while connected to some biblical Mitzvot, is mostly a set of stringencies designed to separate Jew from Gentile (Bishul Akum being the most direct). It is absolutely tragic that Kashrut has instead become a barrier between Jew and Jew, while most Jews will break bread with gentiles but not all their fellow Jews.
I think that the Orthodox establishment is at LEAST as guilty as the Reform one for the state of affairs. Anyone that makes a good faith effort to keep a Kosher home likely does... the level of screw ups that you have to make to ACTUALLY treif your kitchen is pretty impressive (good meat/milk in a pot/pan for the other, that was actually used in the past 72 hours)...
However, the Orthodox world has become obsessed with things of little halachic import, so large groups of observant Jews can't/won't eat in each other's homes... and that makes me sad.
What makes me sad is that, until this recent decision, our synagogue could assure folks from the local Orthodox shuls who occasionally drop in for kiddush that what was being served was kosher, but that's no longer the case. I think it's a sad day for any Jewish community when we can no longer eat in each other's synagogues.
We have a two table system for events where people bring home cooked food. One table is for all-certified ingredients with a kitchen that has only ever used all-certified ingredients (inl dairy), and is strictly "Orthodox-kashrut." The other table is "vegetarian may or may not be kosher."
It works pretty well for interdenominational events. All food served for kiddush/official shul events is very strictly kosher, though.
I will say that I find the 2-table system moderately frustrating because I feel that my kitchen is being lumped in as "not kosher" because I subscibe to the more lenient rules on dairy and occasionally ingredient read for, say, canned chickpeas. Of course I imagine most Orthodox wouldn't eat my food anyway, as a Conservative convert and thus not really Jewish.
Scarlettscion, that's why the rabbi of the first synagogue that I joined after moving to New York City forbade everyone, including his own family, from bringing in food cooked at home--he said that he didn't ever want to be in the position of having to declare one family's kitchen kosher enough and another family's kitchen not kosher enough.
For the record, our own home kitchen wouldn't "pass," as our kashrut observance was not always as strict as it is now. Even now, I would describe our kashrut as "Not ready for (shul) prime time." For openers, we slip occasionally, and, for closers, I have no doubt that there are details about kashrut of which we are not yet aware.
Regarding the two-table system, I think that a more logical approach would be to have a "packaged food" table, on which only packaged food with a hechsher would be allowed, and a "pot-luck" table, for all food prepared in congregants' home kitchens.
Of course, this may be easier in New York City (or other areas with large Jewish populations), where packaged kosher food is readily available. I am grateful that, while many kosher items are not available in my neighborhood, I can walk to supermarkets that sell kosher pickled and cream-sauce herring, kosher chummus, and kosher packaged cakes and cookies (both dairy and parve), and create an "AshkeSfardic" feast for the morning minyannaires without even taking a subway ride.
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